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Where we talk about working in Japanese game companies, the metroidvania genre, indie game design and workflow, and living abroad in Tokyo
At first glance, this interview may seem qualitatively different from the others I’ve conducted -- after all, the focus of this site is “Japanese” indie games. But what exactly does that mean? Games created *in* Japan? Or those developed *by* Japanese people? Perhaps it’s an aesthetic style? Or a set of game play mechanics? As I’ve written about in the past, the realities of international game development make the question difficult to answer, and there are (probably) as many answers as there are players (and makers) of these games. This interview does not settle this question, nor does it care to. But as the number of non-Japanese developers creating games in Japan increases, I think it is important to look at their perspectives on the matter. Daedalus Machine To start off with, could you tell us a little about yourself and Neo Future Labs? Max Preston, CEO of Neo Future Labs I'm originally from California. After finishing my studies of Computer Science at Berkeley, I studied abroad for an extra year in Japan. Being a hardcore gamer, I couldn't help but do some job hunting while I was at it and applied at various Japanese game companies. I ended up choosing Konami since I am a huge fan of their games like Castlevania, Suikoden, and Metal Gear Solid. I was pretty excited. I began working at Konami in 2010 and quickly joined Kojima Productions. There, I worked as a programmer on Metal Gear Solid V and the Fox Engine. I quit Konami in 2016 but stayed in Tokyo and founded Neo Future Labs where we are now developing Hammer World. Daedalus Machine That’s a pretty sweet gig to land immediately after college. Can you tell us what projects you were working on there, and what you contributed to them? Max Preston For the Fox Engine, I worked as a programmer on the editor and the navigation system. For Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes, I implemented various AI behaviors for the enemy soldiers. For Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain, I implemented various NPCs and boss fights, including Eli and the Man on Fire. For Metal Gear Online 3, I programmed several of the in-game UIs. Daedalus Machine What was it like working there? Max Preston I think there's something compelling about working toward a single goal in an environment with dozens of other talented, creative, and hard-working people. As my first job out of college, it was an absolutely pivotal experience for me. Over the six years I worked there, I grew a tremendous amount as a game developer and as a Japanese language speaker. Daedalus Machine How common would you say your experience was? I mean, I’m sure there are other people out there wishing to work for a Japanese company -- what advice do you have for them? Max Preston My experience probably wasn't the most common. I was working for a production with one of the highest quality standards in the industry, with neither an average team nor an average project. Before we even discuss working at Japanese companies, I often hear people say that you'd have to be crazy to work in the games industry at all. Low wages, cancelled projects, unrealistic schedules, and absurd amounts of crunch time seem to be the norm. Indeed, as a programmer it would probably be a more stable career path to work at an IT company or at a large bank. However, I would argue that the games industry is a good place to work if you want to tackle difficult problems and challenge yourself creatively. Although often stressful, the development side isn't boring. People who don't burn out tend to be the ones who have higher levels of passion and stubbornness. With Japanese companies, every team and organization is different so there are more exceptions than there are rules. Still, if you work at a Japanese company, the common language will probably be Japanese, and you will most likely be working within Japanese work culture. Regarding language, it can be learned on the job with enough effort, but the more you know in advance the better. There's a lot of industry lingo that you may not learn unless you work at a company, even if you're a native speaker. As a foreigner entering a Japanese organization, it's better to have an open mind and try to learn how and why things are done if you wish to assimilate into the culture. And if you want to work for a Japanese company, just go to their website and apply.  Hammer World: Dimension Traveler
Daedalus Machine
Let’s talk a little about your project, Hammer World. Can you tell us about the game and its premise? Max Preston Hammer World is essentially a first-person "metroidvania" with physics-based melee combat. The game's focuses are platforming, exploration, and combat. The game takes place in a nonlinear series of strange, interconnected (hand-crafted!) worlds. For now, I'd prefer to keep their true nature under wraps.
Daedalus Machine You’ve described it as a metroidvania game. What, in your opinion, is the defining feature of this genre and why? Max Preston I'm actually still trying to figure out whether or not I should describe Hammer World as a metroidvania. I don't see this as entirely black or white. The way I see this is that the more elements a game shares with either "Super Metroid" or "Castlevania: Symphony of the Night", the more it is apt to be classified as a metroidvania. The predominant elements I would list are:
Recently, I've seen some contentious debates between metroidvania fans about whether "Dark Souls", "Zelda", "Metroid Prime", or other action-adventure games should qualify as metroidvanias, and it seems like a pretty fine line. In Hammer World's case, I feel like our game's nonlinear interconnected structure as well as the way that much of the world will be gated through abilities that you have to unlock gives it a strong connection to the metroidvania genre. However, the fact that it's 3D, first-person, and has a completely different atmosphere than either Super Metroid or SotN might be too much of a difference for most metroidvania fans. Maybe there should be a new term to describe games with a similar game structure but different atmosphere to most metroidvanias. Back in the SNES days, I think they were usually just called "action-adventure" games, but maybe there's something better? Explore-em-up (credit to The Famicast)? I dunno. In any case, I'm a huge fan of the metroidvania genre, including games like Super Metroid, Symphony of the Night, La-Mulana, etc, so I felt like we could try to extend the genre in a new direction through Hammer World, while simultaneously trying to maintain all the elements that makes Hammer World unique. Daedalus Machine How does Hammer World implement this or differentiate itself from other games in the genre? Max Preston First of all, I don't think there are a lot of 3d metroidvania-type games, let alone first-person ones. All I can think of off the top of my head is Metroid Prime, so I think we're venturing into largely unexplored territory here. Also, although many metroidvania games have melee combat, I've seen very few games that have managed to pull off fun melee combat from a first-person perspective. One major factor that differentiates Hammer World from other games is the way that its melee combat is physics-based. This adds an additional layer of strategy in that you can knock enemies off cliffs or into other enemies or hazards to cause collateral damage or elicit various other unique reactions.  Hammer World Environmental Screenshot
Daedalus Machine
There’s a couple of points I’d like to follow up on. First, in terms of the metroidvania genre, I find it interesting that you note both aesthetic and mechanics in the definition. The vast majority of definitions for game genres focus solely on mechanics and gameplay rather than artistic design or, as you say, “atmosphere”. What does this add to defining games, and should it be more common? Max Preston "Atmosphere" is important in terms of creating a coherent and believable world for the player to be immersed in. A strong atmosphere adds an unseen depth to a game. However, rather than being a single easily-definable feature, I think that it's a secondary characteristic that results from all of the base elements and systems that compose the game. Whether or not these elements are consistent and harmonize with each other will either make or break the atmosphere. Super Metroid is a great example of a highly atmospheric game. All of the elements work together to convince you that you are exploring a mysterious and hostile alien planet. The music and soundscape combine harmoniously with the visual style to make it feel like there's something deeper beneath the surface. All of these things add that extra layer of immersion, the feeling that it's an actual world with organic rules rather than just a video game. 
Daedalus Machine Creating -- and more importantly maintaining -- a game’s atmosphere is harder than it sounds. From an organizational perspective, I imagine that a good project lead is critical to this. In your experience, what do you think is necessary? Max Preston From an organizational perspective, it's typically up to the director to prioritize atmosphere and ensure that all elements of the game remain consistent as development progresses. It's also important for the director to accurately communicate his vision of the final product so that all the members of the team are on the same page. Extra consideration is required to determine how new story or gameplay elements can fit logically into the world, or whether they should even be added at all. It can be too easy sometimes to add more and more ideas that seem cool without considering the overall implications. Daedalus Machine Along those lines, I think you’re right that there’s very few 3D first-person games that meet the criteria you mention, especially in terms of exploration. Speaking of the PS2 and PC platforms, it seems that the first person view was generally relegated to FPS or RPGs, such as Doom or Daggerfall, while games with the exploration elements commonly employed an over-the-shoulder 3rd person view. I’m thinking of games like the Legacy of Kain and Soul Reaver series, and even the Darksiders series may qualify. I seem to recall a Castlevania game that did try something similar...Curse of Darkness? Later, of course, was the Lords of Shadow series. Anyway, I’m interested in hearing your thoughts on this division. Call me jaded, but part of me wants to say that the reason we don’t see more 3D metroidvania games is simply because the industry frowns on experimentation… Max Preston Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen was awesome. It's almost a metroidvania, but the top-down perspective and the self-contained dungeons probably make it more of a Zelda-like. Now that you mention those games, I would add that the game's world structure is another major factor in whether it is considered to be a Metroidvania. What I mean by this, is that Super Metroid and SotN each take place in a single complex map of interconnected rooms that are loosely broken up into various zones. In comparison, Zelda games tend to be composed of one giant outdoor map with a number of towns and self-contained (rather than interconnected) dungeons. Other games, like Lords of Shadow or the God of War series, tend to be more linear and level-based, with only small branching paths that deviate briefly from a single main route. Additionally, one cool feature in many metroidvanias that doesn't exist in linear games is that the order you can progress through the game can vary from playthrough to playthrough. Having the game's world structured in such a way gives more freedom to the player and lends more replayability to the game. Sometimes, advanced techniques are used by expert players to completely subvert the order you would normally progress through the game. For example, the reverse boss order speedruns for Super Metroid are extremely impressive. I agree that the amount of experimentation in the industry tends to be pretty limited. This changes into a conversation about whether making games is a business or an art. In general, creative people want to take risks and try new things. People on the business side generally want to make safe and stable investments. When there's a lot of money on the line and when the people with the money view creative challenges as risky investments, you end up with a lot of safe bets on formulas that have done well in the past. However, I think that discouraging creativity is in fact high risk. Humans crave novelty, and when you end up with an oversaturated market of identical games, nobody is happy. Daedalus Machine Speaking of Metroid Prime, any thoughts on MP4? Max Preston Man, I haven't played the Metroid Prime series in a long time. I haven't seen any real info on MP4 yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with it. I still view Super Metroid as the champion in terms of world and atmosphere, so I hope they go as far as possible in that direction, but we'll find out eventually. In any case, I'm hoping that it stays closer to its roots and ends up being more world and gameplay focused rather than being some kind of story-focused space soap opera. It's pretty heavy subject matter, so unless they go all in on that, there could end up being a jarring contrast between the story elements and the atmospheric elements. Daedalus Machine You also mentioned that melee combat in Hammer World is physics based. Could you tell us a bit more about what this means, particularly in terms of gameplay experience when compared to similar games? Max Preston Essentially, the movements and actions of many of the characters in the game are controlled by physics calculations rather than through traditional animations. We'll release gameplay footage demonstrating this when the game is closer to completion. Daedalus Machine What other games would you say have influenced Hammer World? Max Preston I'm definitely influenced by classic metroidvanias like Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night. Our game shares the feeling of exploration, the progression system, and the world's structure (albeit in 3D). There's also definitely some Dark Souls and Mario 64 mixed in. I'm also a fan of old school FPS games, particularly the Unreal series (1, 2, 2k4 etc), so I'm aiming for similarly tight movement and controls, although I think it will end up with slightly different balance so as to match well with the game's other systems. Daedalus Machine From a development standpoint, what’s been the most difficult challenge to overcome and how did you do it? Max Preston So far I would say that although there have been several challenges in regards to implementation, especially with the physics systems, the greatest challenges have in fact been conceptual. Through this project, we've been trying to explicitly do something that's new in both gameplay and setting. This isn't a stereotypical fantasy or sci-fi setting, and we're trying a lot of new things in respect to the atmosphere, tone, music, and art style of the game. I've found it extremely challenging to find the right balance between the completely new elements and the more familiar ones. There aren't a lot of good references, and without strict guidelines there are often too many possibilities, none of which seem to work, and it can be hard to get all of these elements to be consistent with each other. It's kind of like banging your head against a wall fruitlessly until one day you somehow manage to break through the wall and are able to proceed. I'd say that although we've finally found the core we were searching for, we still have a lot of work to do in terms of polishing it until it reaches a point we're satisfied with. Basically, the only solid method I've found in terms of solving difficult conceptual challenges is to spend a lot of time and effort. Thankfully, we have a great creative team, and the solutions tend to just appear out of nowhere. Daedalus Machine So, if they had to create a meme for the game...what would it be? Max Preston I'll leave it up to the fans to determine what ultimately qualifies as a meme. Daedalus Machine How big is the team working on the project, and who’s doing what? Max Preston We have a small core group, but roles aren't concretely defined. Tasks are assigned based on everyone's skill sets and what is necessary at the moment. Daedalus Machine I’d like to hear a bit about your experiences as a developer in Tokyo. That’s where you’re based, right? Max Preston That's right. I wouldn't say that development itself is necessarily different in Tokyo than anywhere else, as that is largely dependent on your team and project. However, in regards to Tokyo's situation, this is definitely a good scene for game development. There's a huge number of people working in the games industry in Tokyo, so there's a vast sea of talent here. Also, I think that Japanese artists are phenomenal, so if you like Japanese art then I think there are a lot of great people to partner up with here to make a video game or other creative project. Tokyo is also great in terms of food, safety, and public transport. It's awesome that basically every neighborhood is walkable, and because there are so many train lines you certainly don't need a car to get around. Daedalus Machine Yeah, but transit times can be a pain if you live far away...which is typical given the insane rent prices there. Does Neo Future Labs have an office that you commute to, is it utilizing a co-working space, or is everyone working out of the Japanese equivalent of someone’s garage? Max Preston Our entire team is located in Tokyo. We tend to work separately, and we meet up as necessary. Daedalus Machine How long have you been here? I've been living in Tokyo for 10 years. 1 year studying abroad, 6 years working at Konami, 2 years indie, and about 1 year of in-between time. Daedalus Machine The number of game developers from outside of Japan seems to have been increasing recently. I think that’s a good thing as it will diversify the community, but what logistical challenges do you think newcomers should prepare to face? Max Preston Moving to a new country with a complex language, just getting setup in general can be quite difficult. Finding a place to live, moving, getting a bank account, communicating with your landlord, figuring out how to set up your utilities, deciphering the settings on the washing machine, stuff like this can be challenging at first. Logistically, most of these challenges can be overcome given enough effort and/or Japanese-speaking friends. But probably the biggest and sometimes insurmountable challenge is just getting a work visa. Short-term, I would say that tourist and student visas (or working holidays based on your nationality) can be effective for just getting into the country, although these can be costly over time, especially as you're usually not permitted to work when you have one of those visas. But to stay long-term, you pretty much have to get accepted as a full-time employee by a mid to large company, and the company has to be willing to go through all the legal paperwork to get you a proper visa. So if you want to move to Japan, I would definitely look up your visa options as soon as possible, and it would be good to start looking for a company as soon as possible if that's what you want to do. As far as I've seen, there's no visa category that easily corresponds to making indie games on your own 100% of the time, so if you want to develop indie games it's likely that you'll have to either join a bigger company or balance that as a part-time thing with whatever your visa category entails. Daedalus Machine At this point, I’d like to ask the obligatory language-related question when dealing with living in Japan. Can you tell us a bit about your language background? Max Preston My Japanese is pretty fluent at this point, both on a casual and business level. I actually only studied Japanese for about a year before coming to Japan, and in retrospect I think that those grammar fundamentals I learned ended up being an important foundation for the rest of the stuff I would pick up after coming to Japan. Hiragana, katakana, and knowledge of some basic kanji was also definitely good to have in advance. Also, years of casually watching English-subtitled anime probably helped build up some degree of intuition with the language. While studying abroad, my Japanese improved significantly from participating socially in club activities at university as well as from going through the strenuous job-hunting process - writing applications, deciphering cryptic forms, and practicing for interviews. Taking the extra effort to try to decipher restaurant menus whenever I would eat out also contributed to my reading skills. However, working 6 years at a Japanese company definitely had the biggest impact on my language skills. My work-level communication skills were pretty lousy when I started, I could get the gist of what was going on in meetings and contribute slightly after 3 years, and my language skills were getting to be pretty solid after about 5 years on the job. I think the biggest contribution however, was that I spent a significant effort to try to understand all the company emails in my inbox, as well as to properly write emails in return. I've found that any particular context tends to use the same words over and over, so looking up just a few words can have a dramatic effect in your overall understanding of communication in that context. Daedalus Machine That’s really true, although doing the email thing can be a devious time sink if you’re not careful. How much Japanese do you think is necessary for indie devs wishing to work here? What resources are available to them? Max Preston Japanese isn't super necessary if you isolate yourself in a foreigner bubble and actively avoid situations where you are forced to use Japanese, although this could potentially limit your opportunities and experiences in Japan. If you want to live and work in Japan, I think that it's definitely worth the effort to slowly work on your Japanese language skills over time. Consistent effort over a long period of time will eventually yield results. The earlier you start the better. In terms of resources, being in Japan there is basically limitless opportunity to practice your Japanese. Putting yourself into a Japanese-language environment and forcing yourself to practice the language is probably the most practical thing that you can do. Working at a Japanese company, participating in group activities, becoming a regular at a local restaurant, reading Japanese literature, or reading and writing emails in Japanese are all great ways to get better at the language. It just takes the extra effort to repeatedly look up terms that you don't know until you eventually remember them. One extremely useful tool I'd like to mention is the Rikaichamp (Rikaichan) add-on for Firefox (or Rikaikun for Chrome), which displays the reading and meaning of Japanese words when you mouse over them. It makes accurate deciphering of emails and websites a lot more efficient. ALC is also a great site for looking up how terms are used and finding example sentences. Daedalus Machine Speaking of the game development community in Tokyo, how would you describe it? Max Preston I would say that there are actually a lot of different game development communities in Tokyo, and they're all quite fragmented. Although there are some exceptions, I've noticed that the majority of developers at big companies don't seem to go to a lot of the networking events, and I assume they hang out with their friends and co-workers most of the time (or they're just working). On the other hand, indie devs seem to be much more active in attending the various events. Also, I have this hunch that there might be a correlation between game development and heavy drinking, but maybe it's just some kind of Tokyo thing. Daedalus Machine Most people are probably aware of the big events like TGS, BitSummit, and Digige. Are there any other events in Japan that you’d recommend for developers? Max Preston If you speak Japanese, CEDEC is like a mini-GDC, and it has some great talks. Tokyo Game Show is worth checking out, and the Indies Corner there has expanded dramatically over the last few years. BitSummit in Kyoto is awesome, and it's definitely my top big indie event overall. Degigehaku (Digital Game Expo) and TOKYO SANDBOX are also pretty cool indie game events. There are also some awesome indie game developer meetups in Tokyo. My favorite one is Tokyo Indies, which takes place in Shibuya's FabCafe once a month. It's a great place to meet other indie devs and to see what kinds of games they're working on. Picotachi at the Pico Pico Cafe in Kichijoji is also a cool small event with various interesting presentations. GameDevDrinkUp in Shinjuku is another fun event, although it's not specifically geared toward the indie scene. Daedalus Machine What can you tell us about your experience there at TGS 2018? Max Preston Yes, so we exhibited Hammer World at TGS 2018's indie corner. It was actually our first time to show Hammer World publicly. We had two PCs set up with controllers attached for people to play a demo of the first area in the game, the "Mushroom World". We were pretty last-minute in getting everything ready, and we didn't have time to send out press releases or anything, so on Thursday and Friday (the business days) it was mostly just friends and ex-colleagues who came to visit, and I don't think the press even knew we existed though a few journalists came by. However, on Saturday and Sunday (the public days), our booth had people playing on both machines non-stop for pretty much the entire show. Although a few people weren't used to playing FPSs and gave up quickly, the vast majority of players seemed to enjoy the game, and quite a few were able to get to the end of the demo, which is fairly challenging. It was awesome to see people just playing our game, overcoming challenges, and having fun. As a result, we were able to confirm that our core concept is solid, and I am now confident that if we are able to complete the game with high enough quality, it's going to become a product that people will enjoy. We also managed to hand out 900 posters and 2000 fliers throughout TGS, so our publicity is off to a running start. Daedalus Machine What’s your timeline for the game in terms of development, and what platforms do you plan to support? Max Preston We don't intend to release Hammer World until it's complete with a sufficient level of quality. To quote Shigeru Miyamoto, "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad." (Still, we hope to finish it within a year or two!) We plan to launch the PC version of Hammer World on Steam first, and later release on the Playstation 4 and Nintendo Switch. Other platforms are to be determined. In the meantime, you can add "HAMMER WORLD: DIMENSION TRAVELER" to your Steam wishlist or follow @neofuturelabs on Twitter to stay up to date with the game's development! Related Content
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